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• 

  Kieran Ray February 2, 2011 at 12:41am

  Would you rather employ some one or sub contract? Rather than employing people all of the people who work for me are self employed and are sub contracted. It saves a lot of hastle when work is slow as you dont need to pay them. 
• 

  Charles Langford February 2, 2011 at 8:23am

  David, I live and work on the Kent Surrey border. I pay between £10 and £12 an hour for experienced maintenance and hard landscapers. I run a bonus scheme. All team leaders get a van for commuting only which they pay the fuel for and a phone for work purpose only. I do not have a pension scheme. I would be very careful sub contracting as Kieran suggests, it is a blurry line and you don want to find yourself in hot water with the revenue. Hope this helps.
  
  Charlie
• 

  Anthony Toop February 2, 2011 at 11:19am

  Hi Charles, just out of interest is that £10-£12 an hour, before or after tax? just seems a bit low for experienced workers, but then again i dont employ anyone myself so cant really comment :-0

  Im sure i read somewhere and was under the impression anyone employing full time staff had to offer some form of pension option, i could be wrong completely or maybe only applies to business's over a certain number of employees!

   

  
  Charles Langford said:

  David, I live and work on the Kent Surrey border. I pay between £10 and £12 an hour for experienced maintenance and hard landscapers. I run a bonus scheme. All team leaders get a van for commuting only which they pay the fuel for and a phone for work purpose only. I do not have a pension scheme. I would be very careful sub contracting as Kieran suggests, it is a blurry line and you don want to find yourself in hot water with the revenue. Hope this helps.
  
  Charlie
• 

  Charles Langford February 2, 2011 at 12:52pm

  Hi Anthony,

   

  Figures are gross. My old boss in South West london pays £10.50 per hour so I thought £10 to £12 an hour in the home counties was generous to say the least. On those rates I make less than £17 per day on each skilled guy if everything goes according to plan which it rarely does. This takes into consideration employer NI returns, holiday allowance, contrbution to overheads and allows for 10% downtime or windscreen time! If you were taking someone on what would you be expecting to pay and what would you expect to charge them out at?

  Legally you are obliged to provide a pension scheme if you employ more than 5 people in anser to your other question
  Anthony Toop said:

  Hi Charles, just out of interest is that £10-£12 an hour, before or after tax? just seems a bit low for experienced workers, but then again i dont employ anyone myself so cant really comment :-0

  Im sure i read somewhere and was under the impression anyone employing full time staff had to offer some form of pension option, i could be wrong completely or maybe only applies to business's over a certain number of employees!

   

  
  Charles Langford said:

  David, I live and work on the Kent Surrey border. I pay between £10 and £12 an hour for experienced maintenance and hard landscapers. I run a bonus scheme. All team leaders get a van for commuting only which they pay the fuel for and a phone for work purpose only. I do not have a pension scheme. I would be very careful sub contracting as Kieran suggests, it is a blurry line and you don want to find yourself in hot water with the revenue. Hope this helps.
  
  Charlie
• 

  Anthony Toop February 2, 2011 at 1:34pm

  Like i say i dont employ or do hard landscaping  and if i took someone on it would probably only be part time, but assuming i did, for general maintenance i would be looking to have to pay around £10, as i would only want someone with knowledge/experience and not a minimum wage numpty. Charge out wise my overheads are less than yourself, but i would probably look to achieve approx £15-16 an hour. This assumes there is no extra vehicles or to many extra tools and they are working along side me, if i was expecting them to work alone with van, tools etc and associated extra costs then i would be looking to charge out at nearer £18+ per hour. But its not something i have considered properly as yet so i have not really looked into the financial implications properly. Im based in south east london/kent border by the way.

   

  I wasnt questioning your rate, just on the face of it for experienced hard landscapers it appeared a tad low, but hey, im a soletrader and plan to be for sometime ;-)

   

  Thanks for your reply/info Charles

   

  Anthony

   

  
  Charles Langford said:

  Hi Anthony,

   

  Figures are gross. My old boss in South West london pays £10.50 per hour so I thought £10 to £12 an hour in the home counties was generous to say the least. On those rates I make less than £17 per day on each skilled guy if everything goes according to plan which it rarely does. This takes into consideration employer NI returns, holiday allowance, contrbution to overheads and allows for 10% downtime or windscreen time! If you were taking someone on what would you be expecting to pay and what would you expect to charge them out at?

  Legally you are obliged to provide a pension scheme if you employ more than 5 people in anser to your other question
  Anthony Toop said:

  Hi Charles, just out of interest is that £10-£12 an hour, before or after tax? just seems a bit low for experienced workers, but then again i dont employ anyone myself so cant really comment :-0

  Im sure i read somewhere and was under the impression anyone employing full time staff had to offer some form of pension option, i could be wrong completely or maybe only applies to business's over a certain number of employees!

   

  
  Charles Langford said:

  David, I live and work on the Kent Surrey border. I pay between £10 and £12 an hour for experienced maintenance and hard landscapers. I run a bonus scheme. All team leaders get a van for commuting only which they pay the fuel for and a phone for work purpose only. I do not have a pension scheme. I would be very careful sub contracting as Kieran suggests, it is a blurry line and you don want to find yourself in hot water with the revenue. Hope this helps.
  
  Charlie
• 

  Charles Langford February 2, 2011 at 1:40pm

  Anthony, As far as I am concerned returning to be being a sole trader is looking very attractive at the moment. I might start another thread about working out levels of return and add a little excel sheet i have put togther. Take a look it might be helpful if you are considering employing people.
  
  Anthony Toop said:

  Like i say i dont employ or do hard landscaping  and if i took someone on it would probably only be part time, but assuming i did, for general maintenance i would be looking to have to pay around £10, as i would only want someone with knowledge/experience and not a minimum wage numpty. Charge out wise my overheads are less than yourself, but i would probably look to achieve approx £15-16 an hour. This assumes there is no extra vehicles or to many extra tools and they are working along side me, if i was expecting them to work alone with van, tools etc and associated extra costs then i would be looking to charge out at nearer £18+ per hour. But its not something i have considered properly as yet so i have not really looked into the financial implications properly. Im based in south east london/kent border by the way.

   

  I wasnt questioning your rate, just on the face of it for experienced hard landscapers it appeared a tad low, but hey, im a soletrader and plan to be for sometime ;-)

   

  Thanks for your reply/info Charles

   

  Anthony

   

  
  Charles Langford said:

  Hi Anthony,

   

  Figures are gross. My old boss in South West london pays £10.50 per hour so I thought £10 to £12 an hour in the home counties was generous to say the least. On those rates I make less than £17 per day on each skilled guy if everything goes according to plan which it rarely does. This takes into consideration employer NI returns, holiday allowance, contrbution to overheads and allows for 10% downtime or windscreen time! If you were taking someone on what would you be expecting to pay and what would you expect to charge them out at?

  Legally you are obliged to provide a pension scheme if you employ more than 5 people in anser to your other question
  Anthony Toop said:

  Hi Charles, just out of interest is that £10-£12 an hour, before or after tax? just seems a bit low for experienced workers, but then again i dont employ anyone myself so cant really comment :-0

  Im sure i read somewhere and was under the impression anyone employing full time staff had to offer some form of pension option, i could be wrong completely or maybe only applies to business's over a certain number of employees!

   

  
  Charles Langford said:

  David, I live and work on the Kent Surrey border. I pay between £10 and £12 an hour for experienced maintenance and hard landscapers. I run a bonus scheme. All team leaders get a van for commuting only which they pay the fuel for and a phone for work purpose only. I do not have a pension scheme. I would be very careful sub contracting as Kieran suggests, it is a blurry line and you don want to find yourself in hot water with the revenue. Hope this helps.
  
  Charlie
• PRO

  Gary RK February 2, 2011 at 5:24pm

  Guys,

   

  would strongly suggest you move this and similar threads to the Business Objectives Groups. While I or LJNers find these threads useful, it really makes like hard if prospective clients or clients see such detailed discussions about our costs.

   

  It leaves no where to go when negotiating prices or gives clients a big bat to beat us over the head with...

   

  Just my honest oppinion and happy to be told I'm wrong :-)
• 

  Charles Langford February 2, 2011 at 5:58pm

  Thanks Colin,

   

  Glad someone got the point.
  
  colin said:

  does it not give them a real idea as to how much it costs to employ people if they see it?   say someone gets told theyre paying 20 quid an hr and the bloke that turns up says hes paid 7 ph    then if they actually know the boss isnt making 13quid ph but theyre also paying x amount ni x amount tax then theres tools and the vehicle said employee is using and fuel etc. 

  thats the biggest reason why customers dont want to pay more than 5quid an hour because they dont see all the costs in running a business
  
  Gary RK said:

  Guys,

   

  would strongly suggest you move this and similar threads to the Business Objectives Groups. While I or LJNers find these threads useful, it really makes like hard if prospective clients or clients see such detailed discussions about our costs.

   

  It leaves no where to go when negotiating prices or gives clients a big bat to beat us over the head with...

   

  Just my honest oppinion and happy to be told I'm wrong :-)
• PRO

  Phil Voice February 2, 2011 at 6:35pm

  Hi Gary

   

  I don't think you are either wrong or right:-))

   

  I understand their might be some sensitivity in discussing what an LJN member might feel uncomfortable about publicising because it might be feared it would return and punish them or reflect on the industry egnerally.

   

  However, I would like members to consider that this information might also be the very best form of education our potential consumer could learn from.

   

  If a client is able to understand that as an employer you had costs associated with employing people then they'd be far more inclined to consider paying prices they'd previously might have though excessive.

   

  Having said that, because the Business Objectives Group is there for all, there's still this option open to anyone who wishes to use it.
• PRO

  Gary RK February 2, 2011 at 7:02pm

  Phil,

   

  I mentioned that I took Charles' point in discussing the principles of costs and costings in public, but so often subsequent posts start getting too specific and I feel it then becomes counter productive.

   

  The sort of people who's first concern is your costs/charges are never going to be pacified.

   

  To them it's all about best job for cheapest price and not a 'win all round' approach.

   

  If they know your cost base, they know where to hit you in negotiating. Its then whether you can or want to walk away.

   

  I don't mean this in an arrogant way, but if you are a sole prop. the equations and costs are quite simple - its Business 101.

   

  Start chucking in employees, ltd company status etc and it becomes more difficult to remain so 'open' on a public forum.

   

  Just as you would not post your audited accounts up here...

   

  Perhaps I'm just an old cynic ????
  
  Philip Voice said:

  Hi Gary

   

  I don't think you are either wrong or right:-))

   

  I understand their might be some sensitivity in discussing what an LJN member might feel uncomfortable about publicising because it might be feared it would return and punish them or reflect on the industry egnerally.

   

  However, I would like members to consider that this information might also be the very best form of education our potential consumer could learn from.

   

  If a client is able to understand that as an employer you had costs associated with employing people then they'd be far more inclined to consider paying prices they'd previously might have though excessive.

   

  Having said that, because the Business Objectives Group is there for all, there's still this option open to anyone who wishes to use it.