Hello
I'm hoping someone can help me with a bit of help / advice / guidance with a bit of a problem I have. (Sorry if this ends up being a bit of a lengthy post)
We secured a new client back in May, part of which was for the regular cutting of a very large area of grass at their property. As we didn't have a ride on mower, they said we could use theirs - which appeared to be relatively old machine, certainly a good few years. The client had recently purchased the house and I believe the machine was left as part of the house purchase by the previous owner.
So...
On the first occasion I used it, the mower developed a flat tyre which I didn't realise until the end of the day as I couldn't see it from the position I was sat in. When I inspected it, the tyre had simply come away from the rim, so I advised the client and got it fixed at my own expense (only a fiver).
On a subsequent occasion (the fifth time of use) my colleague was using it, however, he was sat on it, driving along a long drive and holding a blower in one hand to blow debris off the drive. It appears that in doing so, the exhaust from the blower burnt a hole in the body of the mower. My colleague swears he didn't know he had done it, so we were only made aware of the problem when the client pointed it out on the next visit. We apologised and said we'd fix it.
On the next visit (the sixth), my colleague started the fix by applying filler to the hole with a view to sanding it off when it was dry on the next visit and painting it.
On the seventh visit, when he arrived, he was unable to finish the fix as someone had stuck their thumb into the filler whilst it was still wet and so it would need doing again. To make matters worse, on this visit, the mower completely broke down. From my colleagues diagnosis, it appeared that the hydraulic hose had split and the hydraulic oil leaked out. With the help of a friend he managed to get it back to the barn and advised the clients wife.
A couple of days later I received the following email:
As you know I am in the US until early September
I am a little concerned with the problems we have had with the mower since you started.
The mower was an expensive purchase & so far we have had the lawn mown with one flat tyre, the exhaust has become detached from its bracket & the mower housing burnt through in 2 places by the gardener using a blower whilst on the mower & resting it on the housing. Nobody had the common decency to come & mention this to me & when I asked how the damage occurred I was not told the truth until I mentioned I had seen the gardener driving the length of the drive with the blower resting on the machine. The final straw now I understand is that the hydraulic hose has been damaged & I now have a trail of oil along a fair length of the driveway which now needs cleaning.
I think the time has come to draw a line under these matters. Considering you charge twice the price I would normally expect to pay for a days gardening I don't think I am getting twice the value for money particularly in respect to the care & attention paid to our machinery.
Once I have received an estimate to repair the damage caused both to the mower & driveway I will deduct this from your final account & pay any outstanding amount due on my return
This was on 21st June. Since this time I tried emailing them two or three times to try and resolve the matter, including offering to clean the driveway, offering to look at getting the hose fixed, but got no reply whatsoever.
This morning I sent a further email highlighting the outstanding invoices which are for a total of £845 for work undertaken in May & June. I subsequently received the following email:
Have just got back I need to get the report back from the mower engineer
I know it cost me £85 to clean up the driveway from the hydraulic oil leak
The mower needs a new engine or rebuilding cost advised by engineer between £1500 & £2000
I spoke on the telephone to the engineer who confirms the cause as being driven with no or little oil
All this together with the machine cover damage leads us to suspect that your operator really was not looking after the machine or using it responsible manner
Bearing in mind your hourly charge was twice the normal rate I believe we should have expected a better service
The machine was expensive to buy always well maintained by the caretaker & now I have a damaged & useless piece of equipment to which your company is mainly responsible for
If the repair costs are less than your invoices when the machine is returned in the same condition that you found it when you commenced work at xxxx Hall I will make the appropriate payment to you.
At this point however it would seem that the repair cost will be far greater than your invoices
I am now stumped as to my next steps. I can't really afford to lose £845, but even worse, I can't afford to have to shell out another £1k on top to pay for their machine. I should also add, that if this were to go as far as being a legal matter, the client is a VERY wealthy one and legal costs wouldn't be an issue for him, whereas for me I would have no funding.
A few final points:
I have spoken with a couple of people who are very familar with ride on mowers who both advise that no one can be blamed for a hydraulic hose going - it is simply wear and tear and just happens.
As far as we were aware, the engine was working fine, it was just the hydraulic pipe that was the problem.
Even if there were a problem with the engine, my personal view would be that it shouldn't be us that is responsible for maintaining the machine, making sure it is full of oil etc. I would have assumed that this would have been down to the client or the caretaker he mentions. Is this a fair assumption?
And again, if there was a problem with the engine, we had only used it seven times. In my opinion, the fact that we had used such a low number of times would indicate that the problem was inherent in the machine before we started using it, and it hadn't been regularly serviced and looked after prior to us starting to use it.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated
Thanks
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Replies
I'd reply with something to the effect of what you have written above. Keeping the mower maintained is not your responsibility, a hose leaking is not down to user fault, and the outstanding amount minus £85 for driveway cleaning is due etc. Keep it formal. State that you and your staff know how to use machines.
Next time, don't let a client get £800 into arrears. If they are away then set up a DD.
As Dan says but........... If your using a clients machine then you are, by that action, taking
responsibility for its well being. NONE of my machines leave the unit each day till the routine daily checks have been carried out by my staff and myself. Its a sore lesson to learn and I have had a similar kind of job (client insisting on using their machine) but I point blank refused to and supplied my own machine. Never been comfortable with using customers machines to carry out work. Hope you get an amicable conclusion to this.
I've used client's ride-ons a few times over the years, and always put in writing that although I take great care I can't be responsible for breakages or service items unless I was at fault. To be honest I'd always check the oil, fuel it up, check tyres etc. before using it just as I would if it was mine.
I guess you have to take responsibility for the drive to some extent, although you might well not have seen it leaking behind you, and £85 isn't the end of the world. Personally, I'd say they might expect a new part rather than filling where it's burned through the housing?
As for the engine, using it 7 times with very low oil could have damaged it. What would you do if one of your staff ran a mower repeatedly without checking the oil? Not an easy one, and I'd hate to call who's to blame there. If the client is away, who would he expect to be responsible for fuelling the mower, and other essential checks? I'd suggest it's a bit like a hire machine, where the operator is the one who should keep an eye on levels etc.
He seems to have a real issue with the charges as much as anything, so he might dig his heels in here.
If I use a client's machinery or tools I expect to use them and look after them the same way I do with my own equipment. That means ensuring they are good and ready to go prior to use and cleaned properly at the end of the session.
I would also not expect an employee to damage someone else's machinery, however 'smart' it appeared at the time, to sit down and use a blower rather than use leg work! Thinking through the consequences of an action prior to following it through basically.
I think you will need to bear the brunt of this episode, personally. Perhaps you can salvage some cost by offering to take the defunct mower as payment, full and final. Incidentally, I've viewed ***cain* H*** on the web since you named it in your original post- possibly not a good idea to identify the scene??
Eugene Baston said:
Thanks. I didn't realise I had. Removed it
I think you may aslo be up against a customer with no understanding of the nature of running such machines, who from the sounds of it (your description is that it is old and implies worn) may have overpaid for the machine - I know of similar situations where junk tractors worth less than £500 have been sold as contents for £2500.
I would tread carefuly - as Items such as the blower exhaust - if it was a plastic body - that would IMO be negligence. - Again I personally NEVER use a toold owned by someone else unless i have a clear agreement with them as to who is responsible - And have 1 ride on mower I use in this situation - where the customer pays me £150 a year for my time maintaining it... the machine is stranded behind a newbuild extension so I can not get any of my own mowing equiptment in.
As you used their tools - I would have expected you to inspect the equiptment for saftey as your insurance would no doubt not pay out if you or your staff were injured due to faulty equiptment - and the client would quite rightly not pay up if they had a resonable expectation that you would use the machine with due care, attention and be competatnt and trained to do so. I would personally have given the machine a full one over before using it, including checking for ballenced straight blades, timing belt, drive belt, engine oil (big one in your case) and wheels on properly.
I am aware that recently many people have seen articles regarding gardeners injured by their employers and clients tools, sueing - I think this may be worth exploring, as you appear to have been hired in as an "all in" provider of the service, and the implication of the customers letters is they were paying what they feel was a high price, for what they expected to be a very professional and fully insured - organised and Importantly - Separate from them, service.
Based on the above - I would have to say wait and see what comes in the mail next - I do not expect they could force you to pay for the machine repair - however based on the above, their is some responsibility as the contractor to ensure the machine was checked over, and if any problems, reported back to the owner, and not used - again this will all hinge on how its use was agreed.
If you had an informal ad-hoc agreement - I would take it as a very expensive lesson, and I think you are picking a risky fight trying to stand your ground, and may loose.
Tough one this!
Firstly, by replacing / repairing the flat I think you have set a president as that you would be taking responsibility for repairs.
Secondly, I think you or your staff should have done an inspection before and after use and report any concerns and or take appropriate action such as topping up oil etc. Easy to say with hindslight.
At best, it high lights why you should never use client’s equipment unless there is a formal agreement in place as to who is responsible for what etc.
I appreciate that you accepted the offer of the ride on in good faith but as you have found out some clients aren’t as nice as they first appear and can very quickly turn! I suspect that his real reason for taking the approach he is is simply as a way of asking you to terminate the agreement.
At worst, I can see you being asked to pay for the repairs, at best some form of compromise and that you will not be getting full payment for the services you have already provided.
I would personally sit it out and wait for your client to come back to you, hounding him for payment wouldn’t be prudent until he has informed you of the repair bill and then you can challenge what was repaired and why etc.
End of the day, write it off as experience and in future factor in the cost of purchasing or renting the equipment you need for jobs or turn the work down and try to refer it to another company and get a referral fee.
Really hope it goes in your favour, its never nice to take such a hit as this and even worst as we get closer to the winter months.
what model was the ride on?
you havnt stated,so im guessing it wasnt ever discussed or agreed upon, that it was your responsibility to maintain the mower?
seems that the only damaged you have caused is to the plastics on the mower which should have really been replaced and not repaired with a filler.
the other damage that has occurred seems down to a lack of maintenance-so really the issue should be who is responsible for it and if you never agreed to check the oil, check the hoses etc... then you shouldnt take the blame for it.
get some free legal advice on the consumer action watchdog website
a lot of good advice above, and i feel for you, i can so easily see how you drifted into this situation,
Question - was the engine a diesel?
if so i can kind of see why the repairs are high, but a lot of these garden tractors are petrol, and as a for instance, there is a 16hp vertical shaft briggs and stratton IC up for £325 with no bids as yet on dear old ebay.
i think you are stuffed as far as liability is concerned, but surely he has to give you the opportunity to repair the problem, if someone handed me a bill for work i had had no say in, then i'd be looking very hard at that bill - amazing that he thinks all the work you did was doubly expensive and yet a machine shop mechanic can mention prices ballpark £2k and be taken at his word.
once the bill is settled you can small claims him for any balance that might be owing to you :)
as for worries about the legal route, it would surely be a small claims matter?
if this is the case, legal fees have nothing to do with it.
good luck fella, as i say, i do feel for you in this.
I think there's a reasonable compromise from the replies here. How about agreeing that the mower is scrap, although you don't admit liability. You agree to forgoe the invoice, and take the scrap machine instead?
I suspect that, depending on the model, it could be worth more than you'll get from the client even if it's broken for parts?