I read the recent chain saw licence thread with much interest and at times a little laughter.
The laws that govern and steer us as an industry is fraught with "grey areas" that leads to much confusion to the readers of the rules and regulations to which we should be working to.
I will state from the off, I am an employer so my take will be different to members who work alone, but no less valid than everyone else's opinion. The nature of our businesses brings us into constant daily contact with highly dangerous machines which will inflict life changing injuries and diseases in the blink of an eye.
I take training and CPD for both me and my staff seriously............ is that because of the sector I work in ?, yes, to an extent. Whatever sector of landscaping you work in, should bare no relevence as to whether you get trained and certified or not, but being able to work with knowledge, safely and with best practice SHOULD !!.
The arguement's for and against training and certs will go on forever and the arguement's for "Iv'e been doing this for years, don't need a piece of paper to tell me I'm doing it right" will be part of that. In my opinion, the people with that view are wrong, by the simple fact they have never been tested to the standards set out for today's world.................Fact !!
I served my time as a scaper straight out of school many years ago (City & Guilds & Btec qualified), but left the industry for 18 years, till I came back in 2002 with my own one man band. Things were a lot different back then and laws and regulations were somewhat a lot more lax, today's world is a culture of blame and claim, court battles and insurance premiums.
The chain saw OP really brought to light the differing opinions of members of LJN, some experienced, some not so, but the one thing that stood out was the members thinking on being ticketed.
Even when I was a one man band, in the early days of my business setting up, I made the decision to get whatever training I needed for the sector I was going to be most productive in. I have spent many thousands of pounds training myself and staff through the last decade and don't regret or begrudge one penny of it. As a commercial outfit, training and ticketing is essential to my business, but that's not the point I wish to make.
This is ..........................................................................
Being a "competent" operator ............ just exactly what and who is a "competent operator" ??
Well to me a competent operator is someone who has been trained and tested by an official body and who has built up their competence with experience over time by using the machine.
As an apprentice, I was trained and tested by City & Guilds instructors and given the experience by my Ganger on the job, the proper way to learn any skill IMHO.
The " technicalities" of the law regarding machine use under Puwer H & S 1974 etc etc is open to debate, but as the post header says.....................
To me it's a no brainer, certified training is just like buying another bit of kit you need, why are you buying that mower ?, well......... because I think I will need it and it's a professional model that will serve me well !!!!!
Unfortunately our industry is still viewed as a hobby industry and the amount of new businesses started up by people previously from office and factory careers and having no landscaping experience other than their own garden is testi-mount to that. But before you berate me on that comment, I will say this, I was one of them people. I left the landscaping trade shortly after my time was out and went into the printing and publishing industry and carved myself ( but not before having to go back to college for 4 years and getting qualified) out a very good career until personal tragedy and redundancy dictated a change of job.
UNTIL the people working in this industry come to terms with that then it will NEVER CHANGE and we will continue to huff and puff about Mondeo man. If we wish to be appreciated and viewed as professionals in a professional industry then that means certification and qualification to the standards set out, NOT looking for ways around investing in professional qualifications.
It doesn't cost a fortune as a lot of members think, I completed my NVQ Horticulture II, a two year day release course and all it cost was £600.00 (plus the lost day each for 6 months of each year ) but take off all the public holidays the colleges have, you aren't there that much, and most run through the winter anyway.
All 6 of my Lantra machine competency tickets were two day courses, my NPTC PA1 / PA6 was three days.
My SAFEcontractor accreditation took a few weeks, my RoSPA, a couple of days.
My tracked excavator licence took 11 days of continuous training. Not a lot of time in the grand scheme of things !?1?
Next issue is the PL insurance...........................they can and will take you to task for carrying out operations via machines for which you are not "competent" to use and they will in the event of a claim, ask for your training and certs as proof. No training or cert, no cover. And then you will have the HSE breathing down your neck. You may well think, I only do domestic work, who am I going to injure.....................well if you think that blindedley, maybe it's time to go back to the desk job. Before ranting at me about that statement, re-read para 3, 2nd sentence :-).
MOST training courses are part funded by various government quangos, just ask your college which one, in Scotland for instance, ILA will give you £200 every year for training courses, and that's just one quango, there's lots out there.
LASTLY............................. WHAT YOU DONT INVEST BACK INTO YOUR COMPANY, THE TAX MAN WILL TAKE A BIG SLICE OF. WHY WOULD YOU NOT SPEND THAT MONEY YOU HAVE BUSTED YOUR BUTT FOR ON INVESTING IN YOURSELF AND BUSINESS,
go on, you know it makes sense !!!!!! :-)
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Competency is the key word, regrading training agree but for example chainsaws do people use them on a daily basis, continuous use also makes for a better understanding but this can also lead to complacency , do all chainsaw operators wear the correct PPE at all times ? Say for example you are to cut some firewood , it is scorching hot , do you cut corners & do the job without correct PPE be honest have you always worn correct PPE ? Having done CS30 & CS31 it certainly gives you a better insight into correct procedure. How often do you see operators out & about not adhering to wearing correct PPE i.e. no eye protection when strimming or for that matter hearing protection, thinking it is uncool to be seen to be doing the right thing!
Amen to that....Straight to the point and I fully support the above - 110%.
I've always said that if you want to be treated like a Professional in this industry, then you (and our industry) have got to act professionally.
Must people know what they need to be doing, but looking for get outs via semantics is a short sighted and dangerous approach..
Investing in yourself, your business and your employees (if relevant) will generate more work long term than any spend on 'vanity items'.
I'm with Gary in saying well put and agree 110% as well.
I used to help a mate back home in the bush some weekends for extra cash and would have said i was reasonably competent and with a good practical head on my shoulders from being a farmer, but things have moved on in the world and learnt a lot on my CS30 & 31 course 3 weeks ago.
Also i can now quote on a job and produce my certs to prove i'm competent and my insurance to back up that i'm covered so so are they if any accident does happen.
Agreed, wouldn't like to argue with the insurance company if i had an accident..
Got my cs30/31 and PA1/PA6 makes total sense to me, doing my cs38/39 in January too.
I like doing courses as you learn so much, plus you can ask as many questions as you want for 'extra' knowledge.
Sorry Stephen your missing my point............................ that being, to be professional you need to be qualified and act professional. We all see the people you are describing on a regular basis, what I am trying to say is, lets not be one of them :-)
Stephen @ SJS said:
I wholeheartedly agree with your ethos Brian.
This issue is too complicated to apply a one-size-fits-all remedy though.
Until the industry bodies HSE, LANTRA, NPTC etc etc create an accord and introduce compulsory licensing scheme that's policed - as well as eliminate any grey areas from the wording on information sources - then this issue will always attract debate; and rightly so.
The landscape and horticulture industry attracts transient labour. It's understandable, and I'm not defending it, that bosses are reluctant to commit a new staff member to training until it's certain that new staff member is going to give a business owner the opportunity to recoup any investment.
Looking back through the posts on this and other similar issues, it seems the issue is not so much that bosses are reluctant to train ( and you have heard from several that do ...), but that some Sole Traders/Single employees not knowing/recognising or are prepared to invest in training leading to certification that is recognised/recommended or required by the industry, insurers and members of the public.
Is it that many 'know' they should, but find it easier to justify "no action" due to semantics ?
And while we wait for an Accord, what happens to professionalism in our industry ?
Well said Brian i totaly agree with your points. I for one an a great beleiver in improving myself and my staff and take regular courses to ensure that we are up to date with training etc.
I have today been in touch with the SAFE CONTRACTOR scheme and have started the ball rolling on becoming an accredited contractor. This should improve the health and safety of my business which is totaly vital in my mind and as a bonus we will be looked on as a more serious and compitent contractors to potential and existing clients.
Totally agree Phil but what Im trying to get over is there no excuse for at least being trained and qualified yourself, probably even more relevent if you work alone. And I still dont get people using the grey area semantics as a get out. The construction industry also attracts transient labour, doesn't stop them insisting on at least a CSCS card though and relevent PPE, and used accordingly. I know people will say "I see site workers without their hardhat all the time", doesn't make it right though. And as I said to Stephen....... "Lets not be one of them".
I
Phil Voice said:
Safe contractor accreditation........... great stuff :-). There are a few of us on here, just shout if you need a bit of help
Andrew Evans said:
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