Founded in 2008. The Landscape Juice Network (LJN) is the largest and fastest growing professional landscaping and horticultural association in the United Kingdom.
LJN's professional business forum is unrivalled and open to anyone within within the UK landscape industry
LJN's Business Objectives Group (BOG) is for any Pro serious about building their business.
For the researching visitor there's a wealth of landscaping ideas, garden design ideas, lawn advice tips and advice about garden maintenance.
Replies
Price of slabs
price of hardcore I use MOT type 1 as it makes the best footings imo
sand
cement
labour
then I usualy add 30% profit on top.
Suggest buying some 'cheap and nasty' utility pavers about 400x400x32mm or 450x450x36mm thick for around £2 each, they are nice and light, uniform in thickness and it won't matter that much if you break a few when laying.
Go to your local plant hire shop and possibly rotovate off the turf/top 75-100mm of soil, loose this material on site somewhere.
Get 3 tonne loose/dumpey bagged delivery of sharp (grit sand) delivered to site.
Buy say 3 bags of cement.
Check area is uniformally excavated to 75-100mm depth to allow sand bed + paver.
Hire vibrating plate and do 2-3 passes over soil surface to compact.
Follow instructions on www.pavingexpert.com on how to lay on a screeded sand bed.
Lay pavers with a 3mm close joint using a hammer handle as a temporary maul (or buy a rubber one).
Perimeter pavers should be bedded on 5:1 mortar mix.
Use a spirit level and a string line.
The above method will produce a 'passable' patio which should suffice most lightweight situations and will probably settle a bit in places over time.
The professional landscaper's method is to lay/compact type 1 sub-base material and lay pavers on a 5:1 bedding mix. However, as you are a paving 'virgin', it is not as easy as it sounds/looks so I would suggest you run the first method by your customer first.
Good luck and post us all some nice pictures of your cracked pavers (er, I mean beautifully laid patio) :-)
I have over the years tried many methods for laying slabs and natural stone, in my opinion for someone who is trying for the first time, a sub base of type 1 stone or scalpings as they also are known to a depth of no less than 100mm which is compacted with a vibrating plate. I sprinkle a bag of cement on the top and run the plate over again, this binds the top and stops annoying stones coming loose when laying the slabs. Then lay your slabs on a wet but not runny 5:1 mortar mix at about 25-30mm thick, this should be a full bed around the perimeter of the slab and then accross ways to support the rest of the slab, although you should have as much of the slab supported as possible it makes things easier if there is a gap underneath so when tapping down to get it level the excess mortar has somewhere to go. If you want to add a bit of strength to the mortar you can always add a few shovel fulls of sharp sand. Either butt straight edge slabs together or you can leave a 10mm gap for pointing. Use a mortar gun and rub joints with a pointing iron. when pointing be careful not to smear slabs as you don't want to have to spend hours cleaning them off with brick cleaner. If I can be of any help drop me a line.
Good Luck
Nigel
Always always put in compacted MOT so that you have a good base with to start laying onto. The depth of the MOT depends on how good the existing ground and for a patio in will generally be at least 4 inches.
And always use a grit sand and cement mix mixed in mixer so it is wet but not sloppy or runny.
As has been said check out the paving expert site as it is described in full detail.
I think it would be good to do you first patio with the help of someone experienced - are you close to another LJ member?
If you have never laid paving I would suggest you set up a test area at home, buy a bag of sharp sand, building sand and cement and trial mix a few to get a feel for the different consistencies.
Lay a sheet of plastic onto a hard surface and imagine it is a 50-100mm compacted sub base - the mixture will slide over the surface and you have to imagine it holding rigid. If you have a slab of concrete that you can use then this is better - you can rake up the mixture and wash it clean when the experiment is done.
Preferences vary - a ratio of 4 or 5 parts sand to one part cement is ideal (usually shown as 4:1 or 5:1) - there are occasions when something stiffer might be needed but I very rarely go to 3:1.
Start off with a semi-dry/damp mix (something that will compress with the moisture but is not 'tacky or sticky'. Do it with both the sharp and the building sand. Use a surgical type rubber glove to feel how it reacts to compression in your hands and how it holds its form when squeezed - add a little water at a time, it is easy to add ore but you cannot take any out if you over-do it..
Spread this mix out on the plastic with a trowel so that you have a non-compressed mixture at a uniform depth. Now offer a slab to it and tap it gently down but get a feel for how the sand is reacting, the surface stability of the stone. Make sure you are consistent with the tapping. Tap too hard and often on one side and you will get more than likely get a rocker.
These drier mixes are OK for heavy flagstones such as a patent grey granite or York stone where weight alone will hold the slab firm but you won't achieve adherence between the flag under-surface and the mixture. It is possible to just use sand without cement if you are using a very heavy slab.
Now scrape up the two separate dry mixes and re-mix but add extra water until you have a consistent we mix. The best way to know it feels right is to fill a bucket with the mixture to the top and then turn the bucket over. Measure (you can take a view rather than use a tap measure - instinct will confirm if you have it right) how far the mixture drops.
This is called a slump test. If you get a drop of one quarter to one third from the top then you will have an ideal mix for what you need. If the mixture slumps by anywhere near 50% then re-mix with fresh materials, making sure that you are working to the same gauge. Mortar bases that are too wet not only get messy but they will continue to slump during the laying process and effect and may affect the surface levels.
These wetter mixes will take the paving and replicate the underside profile discrepancies and create a unique 'print' - don't keep adjusting them once in place otherwise surface bonding will not be achieved. If you are not happy it is best to lift the slab and rejuvenate the bed and offer the slab again.
You will notice that the two sands feel different and react differently both in the hand and as a base material. As experience grows you will instinctively know what to look for without carrying out the above experiment and you will also be able to adapt your laying methods to suit the swings in mixing consistency.
One last test, try mixing the two sands together and test for feel and workability. You should be able to now lift and wash the slabs - level the sand and cement mixture right out on the plastic and let it go off - you can then rake it up and consolidate it into the new patio base.
Getting a feel for levels is trickier and takes a bit of experience but if you use lines or profile boards or in time, learn to lay the perimeter edging, then it is straightforward.
Reputation is everything and I admire you willingness to learn but you would benefit from visiting another landscaper and watching him lay a few stones.
Some good advice from the others as well - hope it helps.
Its all about good preparation and the bed, once you've tried all the above for many years and you've replaced paving at your own expense, NOT the clients, how else will you learn unless you punish your own pocket with your mistakes, believe me Ben you will make lots and the only way to learn quickly is if you hurt your own wallet.
The wallet punishment sector may seem a little harsh, you cant be flippant or complacent when handaling the clients money. Good luck to you
As Ive said to David, first you need to master the art of preparation then the all important mixer and quickly as you would'nt want to hold up a grumpy installer when he / she is on a role.
Are there any females installers in the land?
With all comments you build up an understanding of how each Company goes about landscaping and what fits the bill regarding the different levels we are all on.
I know That In the future there are 6-9 companies on LJN that i'd have no hestitations of sub-contracting to or with, and I'm afraid sir your one of them. No problems with your comments, Informative, direct and funny.
keep going PG
You will also need to ensure that you have allowed for removal of surface water therefore there will need to be a fall on the paving and this can vary depending on the type of slab to be used. The smoother the surface the less fall required.
If there is no natural run off for the surface water you may need to instal drainage which will either be fed into an existing system or may require a soak-a-way.
If you decide to use a natural paving like Indian sandstone ensure you use a full bed of mortar as some stones can be porous and if a window system with just a blob in the middle is used then the mortar under the slab can show through as a stain on the surface.
What I would say is never be afraid to ask for help. Best of luck
It would be good to have a rough figure in mind when giving estimates, I have a couple potentially coming up. My initial calcs show something in the region of £50 per m2.
Ta
D
One example;
Excervate by hand, lay sub-base of sand 100mm thick, lay precarst concrete flags, spot bedded cement mortar.
natural colour,
450x450x50 £46
600x600x50 £38
600x900x50 £36
This includes materials, labour etc. but profit and Vat have top be added, also I would add another £10 to eatch m2 and use MOT type 1 compacted with wackerplate instead of the sand.
-
1
-
2
of 2 Next