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Payments from Landscapers.....backhanders?

The Garden Design Journal published an angry letter from a landscaper in its Febuary edition, verging on the offensive.As a stimulous to debate on fees, commissions or, as he would have it, back-handers charged to and recieved from landscapers, I attach my reply to the letters page of the Journal.What do other designers - and landscapers - think?"I was disappointed but not unduly surprised to read the letter in the Garden Design Journal entitled “Bad Practice”.For me, the letter from Mr Anonymous underlines the lack of mutual respect and understanding which is all too common in this sector of the garden industry. I have heard many designers complain of greed, incompetence and worst on the part of landscapers and as many disparaging remarks by landscapers about ignorant and commercially unaware designers. I think it is time that the industry grew up a bit and realised that only by close cooperation between the two groups do great gardens get made.Mr Anonymous makes no attempt to hide his anger and contempt when he accuses some designers of greed in asking a landscaper for a commission on the worked offered to him, makes rash assumptions about the designers’ business charges and relationship with his client and threatens to “name and shame” those who offend his notion of good business practice.I have news for him; while not universally employed, many very senior members of the UK garden design fraternity have similar business models. As a former landscaper I have been asked by prominent members of the Society of Garden Designers and by ‘house-hold names’ in the business who are not Members, for similar fees, commissions or “kick backs”. I have no problem with this provided I have the support of the designer in winning the contract and can build the fee into my quotation.Consider this scenario: as a professional garden designer for nearly 20 years I have designed upwards of 1,000 gardens and my work results in around a £ 1 million-worth of garden construction each year for the industry. Around half of what I have designed was constructed by my own staff; the other half became DIY jobs for clients, were built by other contractors or were never implemented. This half I have no control over and landscapers are free to quote for them if they have the opportunity.Now let’s say that one day I decided to lay off my 12 landscapers and resign from BALI and APL.. I would still have around £500,000-worth of potential garden construction contracts which I could decide to ignore or offer to other landscapers. I could give the lot to that angry Mr Anonymous and hope for a nice Christmas card, or better still, I could offer it at say, 5-10% of the work he wins with my co-operation and support. My accountant and bank manager would conclude I had taken leave of my senses if I did anything less with such a marketable commodity.The mistrust and lack of appreciation of the value of each other’s contribution highlighted by the “Bad Practice” letter is not helped by the Society of Garden Designers, which excludes 90% of its members by maintaining a narrow-minded view of what constitutes good garden design practice which is at odds with the majority of the industry. The widely unreported efforts by ex-Chairman Peter Thomas to change the status quo within the Society appears to have faltered with his resignation. I am waiting to support a new Association of garden designers which truly represents the industry and works to be more inclusive. "Colin Elliott45 Rue de Varennes,36210 ChabrisFrancewww.gardendesignacademy.comwww.gardendesignfrance.comwww.garden-design.co.ukwww.chabrisloirevalley.comTel: 0033 (0)254 40 15 42Mob: 0688 09 16 33

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  • PRO
    Thanks for highlighting this Colin

    It is as much disappointing that the Society of Garden Designers should publish an anonymous letter at all.

    In my view, there is no credibility attached to a point of view if the commenter is unwilling to throw their hat into the ring by stating clearly who they are or who they represent.

    Keep us posted.

    Regards


    Phil
  • I must admit that when I saw the title I expected a very differant post.

    I realy don't see what is wrong with the arrangement you have mentioned above, and would be surprised if it is not repeated in other situations where you have designers and others who create the design.

    Assumedly Mr Anonymous is how the letter writer decided to identify himself, interesting then than that he then chooses to threaten to 'name and shame' those whose designs he has used to keep in business and make a profit while remaining anonymous so he can carry on doing so.

    While I can appreciate that there are times when whistle blowing there is a definite advantage to remaining anonymous, if your setting out to ruin other people's reputation and business then be man enough to do it honestly and in the open.
  • I dont agree with the practice of charging a commission to a landscaper. This is mainly because I know 99% of the clients would not like it. What do the designers call it in their accounts incidentally? 'commission'? It is common practice however in this and many other industries, and I can understand how it has arisen.

    My rather radical suggestion is that garden designers should get stuck in with their own team of landscapers, that way they would get in touch very quickly with the economic and practical aspects sometimes lacking in their experience. That's what I did. I went from design only to running my own design and build team, and its so much better to have it all under one roof and I learned a whole lot more too. I also think that would squeeze out the landscapers who are poor at design and raise the whole profile of the industry and give the public a better service.
  • I dont see a problem with paying a 'commission' fee to a designer if the designer puts your name forward as a suitable landscape contractor to carry out the work for the client.

    If the designer didnt put your name forward as a contractor would you have got the work or even known about the work?? So would paying 10% be alot to pay when if the designer hadnt told you you would have had 90% of nothing??

    I am a contractor not a designer and i owuld hope that if a contractor advised a client to enlist the services of a designer that the designer would do the same and pay a 'commission' fee to the contractor for the lead.
  • I think there are several issuse here.

    If a designer is charging a fair and reasonable fee (see the SGD fee scale. http://www.sgd.org.uk/resources/SGD_Fee_Guidance.pdf )
    Then should they be asking for more?
    The ethical issue is that this is a payment that will be added to a contract by the landscaper, but one that the client knows nothing about. Since the designer and landscaper are supposed to be working in the clients best interest this doesn't sit well.

    Should the designer in their contract with the client, incorporate a Project management fee, say of 10%, to recomend contractors and oversee the job. Then the designer would justify the cost and also have to be active in dealing with the landscaper. By paying a comission does the client or landscaper get any additional input from the designer? when you are looking at projects over £100,000 10% seems alot of money to give away for no work.
    If a job was in a tender situation then there would be a lot of technical detail which the designer would have charged for.

    Ultimately we are all trying to promote a professional industry. If we ever hear of other industries giving commissions or 'kick-backs' we soon start to scream. Should we be any different?
  • This type of thing happens in all industries. In a past corporate life, many years ago thankfully, I dealt with major DIY and department store retailers and it was the norm for the retailer to ask for, and always get, a percentage kick back for products sold over the year. This percentage would usually be higher on promotional items that were 'front of house'. The kick back was always built into the product price.
  • PRO
    I do not think that paying a commission to a designer should be viewed as underhand but it all depends on the circumstances behind the request for money.

    If a designer has already has been commissioned to create a design for a set fee and that fee is to include the selection and appointment of a landscaper to carry out the work then I believe the practice of 'backhanders' is wrong.

    If a designer has been commissioned to create a drawing for a fixed fee and then asked afterwards to recommend a landscaper for the construction I feel that a reasonable 'finders fee' is justified but this should be paid by the landscaper from the fee that has been accepted.

    The landscaper must make the decision in advance as to whether the addition of a further cost will reduce his or her chance of being successful.

    As long as all transactions are carried out in an honest and transparent manner and all parties are clear on the terms of engagement then ultimately, the client will be able to assess what is the best route for him or her to follow.
  • Yes Clive absolutely!

    Clive Warwick said:
    Yes thats the idea most designers should take on. Not only would it get rid of the poor landscapers but also the poor designers!

    Susan Gallagher said:
    I dont agree with the practice of charging a commission to a landscaper. This is mainly because I know 99% of the clients would not like it. What do the designers call it in their accounts incidentally? 'commission'? It is common practice however in this and many other industries, and I can understand how it has arisen.

    My rather radical suggestion is that garden designers should get stuck in with their own team of landscapers, that way they would get in touch very quickly with the economic and practical aspects sometimes lacking in their experience. That's what I did. I went from design only to running my own design and build team, and its so much better to have it all under one roof and I learned a whole lot more too. I also think that would squeeze out the landscapers who are poor at design and raise the whole profile of the industry and give the public a better service.
  • the designer has got the design for the client,who now wants it built,surely if he finds a landscaper to do the job,he has done the most work to find that customer,so a "commission",not backhander,is totally acceptable and deserved,its a job that landscaper would not have had otherwise.
    we even get a bonus at work for finding new contracts or extra work.
    mr anonymous can stick it,....STEVE LOFTUS
  • I have found this thread interesting to read.

    In particular that it should be the designers who expand their businesses to include landscaping. Surely if a landscaper has issues paying commission to designers for getting work then surely the answer would be for that landscaper to employ their own designer?
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