"Hello Philip,
I really want to raise a concern I have over the bigotry and racism that appears on the forum. The latest thread that makes racist attacks on a minority is called 'Dodgy sods'. Replace the phrase "travelling community" (his inverted commas, not mine) with Asian, black, Welsh or anything else. It's been mentioned before that it's not only the regular posters that visit the forum, but potential customers; is this how you would like the industry to be represented? Are these the people you would like your company to be associated with? It is absolutely NOT mine, and has been the reason that I do not sign up. I would be horrified if any of my customers thought that I shared the posters' opinions. Surely there is a set of T&Cs that must be agreed to while registering; do these not include forbidding making group attacks?
I've seen the same casual racism on the site before. If the same remarks are still being made, am I to assume it is condoned by the forum's moderators?
I'm sending this directly to you out of respect for the forum, however much I would like to publicly hold the posters' to account.
I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the matter,
Regards,
Tim"
Sadly apart from signing himself of as Tim, Tim is otherwise anonymous...and that's a great shame.
I removed the thread 'Dodgy Sods' yesterday. Not because I was embarrassed or disagreed with posters' views or comments but because I had little time and I was unsure of my legal position.
I am quite certain that the thread was meant with the best intentions. Whilst some of the language used was not an ensemble of words I'd have necessarily chosen myself I shared some of the concerns raised.
In my view there is absolutely no reason why we should not debate delicate subjects in an adult manner. I apologise to Andy Doughty for removing his thread although I did take time to explain my reasons via a private chat. It was Andy's decision, ultimately, that the thread was removed.
To shy away from valid debate on the basis that it isn't politically correct is both cowardly and morally bankrupt.
I''d hope there are many who would agree with me that the landscape industry (although Landscape Juice has worked hard to change this) spends too much time patting itself on the back and leading sycophantic PR campaigns without spending time on what matters to the majority of its practitioners?
Theft of landscaping and garden equipment is a major problem for our industry and there must be efforts to restore law and order and protect the livelihoods of those affected by theft of equipment.
Sadly travelling families are responsible for a lot of crime and it is recognised by leading politicians. Back in 1999 an unrepentant Jack Straw MP said:
"Travellers are people who think that it's perfectly OK for them to cause mayhem in an area, to go burgling, thieving, breaking into vehicles, causing all kinds of other trouble including defecating in the doorways of firms and so on".
Source BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/428915.stm
I found the above on
Political Correctness - the awful truth whilst researching Travellers and theft, before writing this post.
I think the author of the website makes a very valid point (directed at Trevor Phillips, chairman of the Campaign for Racial Equality) when he says: "Trevor - the problem is not one of race - it is one of anti-social behaviour."
A recent court case in which a gang of men were convicted of the grooming and rape if young white girls in Bradford found that police and social workers may have been able to stop the abuse some four years earlier but were afraid to do so because they felt they would be accused of being racist.
In responding to this thread, please think before you reply.
Views: 51
Replies
Difficult one, admittedly didn't see the whole thread.
Don't see how it can be construed as racist to criticise any group's behaviour, i.e objecting to what they actually do or did, rather than who or what they are.
On the other hand, not every garden machinery theft is carried out by travellers, and to make assumptions that they've committed a particular crime without evidence, you can understand how it could be viewed as discriminatory. Even if it was highly likely.
I detest racists and racism. Full stop.
I also detest those people, groups & organisations who play the 'race' card at every oppurtunity. In my eyes this often does more harm to the subject matter than the origin comments.
I don't know who Tim is, or whether it's a nome du plume for someone on LJN, but poor show for effectively lobbing a grenade into LJN and tarring our collective without the ability to reply directly. It is people such as that who undermine the whole issue.
Come on Tim have balls to make the accusation in person and have a debate on the subject with your 'peers'.
My view is that, yes perhaps a couple of comments where not to my personal taste, but to label them all as racist- get a life. I note you bought up the subject of other races into the subject. Interesting...
Due to such issues many feel unable to debate subjects such immigration, national identity etc for fear of being labelled by people such as yourselves.
Yes, I do feel strongly about such subjects. I'm old enough to have worked around the world, seen fantastic countries and worked with any different nationalities, beliefs, religions and races.
Where does this end ? The inability to describe any collective(s) with descriptions, comments or dare I say accusations? If that day arrives in the UK it will say a lot about our nation.
Never have I felt more uncomfortable than at this moment now, on a iphone typing this response. I am, I guess angry.
100% back you Gary. Whoever you are Tim, have the conviction to stand up while you throw the grenade. If your that upset about it come on and debate the pros and cons with the members who contributed to the post. They might have been wrong, they might have been right and had justified reasons for their post's, but that can't be debated now with the OP being removed.
I didn't read the thread, but how can it be "racist" unless the group accused are all from one racial origin? It could, possibly, be described as "bigotted", but the communities mentioned have always been from many different racial groups when I've come in to contact with them.
There was a complaint in last Sunday Times Culture supplement, asking for action from the USA cattle-worker's associations over the UK's derogatory use of the term "Cowboy Builders" on TV programmes. I kid you not! This way madness lies.
Tim states that the thread referred to 'racist' attacks on a minority. Tim perhaps needs to read the OED to define what 'racism' is and I request that he does that in the very first instance. He also refers to 'casual racism' ,something that cannot be accurately defined. Racism is when one RACE believes that through its cultural upbringing, it is superior to another RACE. To my knowledge, I hold precisely the same RACE as the individuals he refers to.
But that is merely a correction of fact - I believe Phil's stance is entirely correct; common sense must out in the end; Andy's thread discussed a matter of FACT that he had witnessed; we are talking about theft of equipment which can end businesses such as ours in one swoop. On the other hand, generalisations of any sort could be avoided as the equipment has yet to be proven to be stolen by the group referred to.
Bigger picture - Firstly,if you are going to throw racism, sexism, ageism or any divisive into an argument, understand what you are really talking about. Secondly, on the flip side, Innocent until found or proven guilty. Thirdly, whilst we will never agree entirely with any thread or written comment (just look at the vile stuff in you tube comments as an example), respecting other views, thought for others and perhaps using less emotive responses to make a point is the order of the day. If you wish to win an argument, it may be prudent to do so by persuasion rather than short term thinking with aggression or bullying.
there is only one race
the human race, if i insult myself, am I racist or just a an idiot
Well, it appears i've opened a can of worms,
So... Tim.... Why did you not also approach me to discuss my comments and how you were offended by them?
I can assure you i'm not racist, I just have a big problem with any group of people, regardless of race, that think they are beyond the laws that everyone else abides by, laws that make our country a civilized one.
I have a big problem with anyone, regardless of race, who believes they can just take what they want from where they want at the cost of others who live an honest hard working life.
Where I live the issue is a serious one as I live in the country, which means a lot of farms, a lot of machinery and equipment, and a lot of oppertunity to steal from them. I don't know anyone who doesn't share the same view as me around here. These people are determined to make themselves as abrasive to normal society as possible, relishing in their anti social behaviour and bringing their children up with the same principles, My point is: why are you surprised that they're not winning any friends amongst hard working people like ourselves who stand to lose a hell of a lot because of their decisions.
However, this is just my opinion of course,
other brands of social annoyances are available!!
I think the only real issue I would acknowledge (And I do wholly reject this Tim's accusation that people on this forum were being racist in discussing the fact that some travelers commit theft), is the fact that it is easy to stray into using a term that identifies a group (not a race) of people, in a way which is interchangeable with calling them all criminals - this is probably not fair or correct, but is an easy slip up to make when typing.
This is much the same as with the generalisation that someone wearing a tracksuit is a "chav" and theirfore will commit anti-social behaviour.
Adult discussion is fine on the topic of who commits theft, and why, and to say that a particular lifestyle lends itself to criminal behaviour by the simple fact that it is incompatible with the rest of societies employment structures is not racist - it is either an opinion, or from (my qualified background) a sociological explanation as to why one group of people is often associated with one type of crime.
As a minor aside, where we now have a 'Like' button
maybe we could also have a 'Dislike' button
to indicate our distaste of a discussion without actually entering it?
Absolutely correct David.
David Cox said:
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