LJN Blog Posts

Comments

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  pete April 1, 2009 at 8:17pm

  Gosh George, I wish I could just spit 'em out like you can, I didn't want to write this in case I make a fool of myself - it always looks crap two days later - but I've got to say a bit.
  
  I remember working the garden of an age concern place, there was a gullyway alongside - a shortcut from the town to the girls school. I heard a ruckus and ran over to see a PO shouting at three teenage schoolgirls - then him marching them up the hill toward the school. I saw them sitting on the wall lunch time next day - one of them had quietly called him a pig as they'd passed, he'd then flipped - and marched them up to see the head - they said they weren't in trouble. This PO was in a very privilaged situation here - to turn this around and make himself a friend to these young girls / ladies and also teach them a valuable lesson --- but this PO is himself a victim of our culture.
  I have a theory about policemen - they join up with all good intentions (mostly) - find out no-one likes them and so they turn into b * s
  
  I've read that in some places in the world children are treated like a dog until - or if they reach the age of five - then they are given respect and treated as a young adult and hopefully by teenage years they will be reaching some kind of maturity. In this country, our teenagers can look fully grown up before they're ready to cope with it - every week round here we have little incidents of mindless foolishness (and sometimes I wish I could join in.)
  
  George said: "Even considering the argument that today’s young people are more violent does not hold water. Where are the running battles we saw between the mods and rockers? The violence of the riots, football hooligans, National Front?"
  - This is what worries me George, that there 'is' more violence amongst the young - ie - more fatalities - at least thats what they keep on, - and on, telling us - because if we are still evolving, this is going backwards. Why can't our government get something right - like make us all a little happier - its their job.
  
  I guess this needs the parent in the middle, but from what I've seen there's a better relationship between child and grandparent - a deeper understanding from grandparent and so more love/respect from the child. - In olden times, within the natural extended family, when a yong couple/woman had a child there would be mum on hand, or aunties, grannies --- who'd already been there and so knew just what to do when the baby cried. In more recent times, the young mum and dad, cut off and isolated in their new home, may not really know what to do with baby - because they haven't seen it done - the problem's compounded as the generations roll on - isn't that why our grandparents live so long - and what they would want to do - help take care of the children - while mum and dad go out dancing and try and finish off growing up. (my poor old gran finished off her life alone - on the 13th floor)
  
  if we've done away with the gods then you have to say, science has gotten us in a bit of a pickle (you can ignore that last line if you want)
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  Pip Howard April 1, 2009 at 9:01pm

  Great writing and very interesting; due to the nature of my work predominantly and the privilege of living in the more rural and beautiful parts of the UK prior to a move to France, it has usually been the scaremongering headlines that form any opinion in this regard. However when trying to decide on a suitable future me, my wife and our 5 year old son there appeared little option but to relocate to France, based more than anything else on the general attitude towards not just children but also teenagers and beyond. Tony Hawks sums up these sentiments brilliantly in the book 'Piano in the Pyrenees' and it is very very apparent everywhere we go with our son here. He is always included in greetings, conversations etc.,. It is assumed that whenever we go out it includes our son. He has been able to make friends with elders on his on merit. Now my take, somewhat controversial, is a complete blame on the UK media and successive government's actually tackling these 'hyped' up problems with kneejerk laws and policies, which are dragging this huge element of society into a gutter they do not deserve to be in and then the newspapers can make even more destructive headlines when the youth's kick back in the only way they have left to do so.
  
  Thanks for this George, brilliant stuff and my wife was fascinated by what you wrote. I also believe it is a highly relevant subject matter for here, considering the recent posts and given to the fact that as with many 'service' industries we are all out in the field somewhat discussing these issues with clients.
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  Phil Voice April 1, 2009 at 9:18pm

  Great post George
  
  I remember growing up with great respect for my elders but even as a kid I remember feeling that I deserved respect from them too.
  
  I also remember having a healthy respect for authority too (unfortunately, in many cases, authority was as wild as others perceived the young to be).
  
  I had some pleasant news on Monday from an Electrician who took my son with him for a weeks work experience.
  
  "I just wanted to drop you a line to say what a pleasure it was to have Henry with me last week .
  
  Over the years I have had apprentices and young people on work experience both here and in the UK.
  
  I must say Henry really impressed me with his use of tools and his ability to carry out some work on his own at times and end up with perfect results .
  
  I know he wants to go into engineering and if my experience of him is any thing to go by , he will do very well ."
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  dgeorgea April 1, 2009 at 11:16pm

  Hi Pete,
  I’m glad you responded. And don’t worry about how it looks in a few days time. I have been debating childhood and parenting for many years. When looking back at some previous posts I have been very pleased, and surprised how well I put things together, others have made me cringe. But the important thing is taking part, and yes some of my views have changed over time.
  I will be looking at young people and attitudes to authority in another posting, so if you don’t mind I will not respond to this section at present.
  ‘I've read that in some places in the world children are treated like a dog until - or if they reach the age of five’
  Forgive me, but I do believe this to be a very subjective analysis based on where we are today. In societies with high infant mortality rate the first five years are very vulnerable and harsh as it sounds there is little motivation to invest in time/emotion etc to those under 5. The reality is that with high death rates there is very little ‘value’ in children this age. Sorry I am probably not using the best words here, this is not the same as saying that they are unwanted or unloved. For those living in real poverty and poor sanitation and health care those under 5 are a huge burden on the family and it is not until the child reaches 5 or 6 that there is any real confidence in their survival.
  It is very difficult living in a modern western society to understand this. It is only because of the advances and higher survival rate that the importance of development of such young children takes on importance.
  The role of the family is an important one, and one which I believe cannot be over emphasised. It is also due in part our failure to deal with this that has lead to so many problems that we see in families today. Over the years I have become much more fascinated in the evolution between being a parent and becoming a grand parent. Again this is something I plan to explore in a future post.
  As for your last line, well again this is something I want to look at and challenge. As a pagan I do not believe that science replaces religion/spiritual pathways. To replace ‘religion’ with science creates a hole that science alone cannot replace, I believe we need to understand this and possibly explore that if ‘religion’ is replaced with science then how is this hole filled.
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  dgeorgea April 1, 2009 at 11:49pm

  Hi Pip,
  One of my key concerns about UK politics is that so much legislation has been made as a knee jerk reaction to public opinion, often manipulated by the media. It leads to poorly thought out legislation with real consequences for real people.
  I do not believe it is the role of government to pamper to the wishes of the people, but to work for the best of the majority of the people, and this means making decisions which are not popular. Rather controversially I had little respect for Toy Blair until he took us into the war in Afghanistan. It is not because I necessarily agree or disagree with the decision but it was the first time I believe he really stood up for what he believed rather than trying to suck up to celebrities and the popular vote.
  I love your post, it is easy to say that children in other countries have far more respect, in the UK the solution is often seen as far more discipline and punishment which I believe your post shows that this is missing the point in general.
  Last year my daughter decided she wanted to organise a charity concert. Because people respected her and backed that up with money to put the event on she gained a great deal of respect from a very wide range of people, bouncers, venue staff, teachers, councillors, bands and even the freelancer she paid to design the publicity. At 15 she commanded respect and high expectations from those up to 3 times her age. Respect was given and she rose to the occasion. A lot of people were shocked to find out not only was she 15 but also diagnosed with autism. I certainly would not have taken on such a large project.
  I honestly believe if we changed our attitude to young people it would do far more to resolve the issues than any punishments we might dream up.
  When she was younger I gave her £50 to buy some clothes with. We went to a well known children’s store. An assistant came up and asked if she could help. I told her that Stacey was the customer and would be buying her own clothes. She spent nearly an hour with our daughter helping her to decide what she wanted, find the right size, helped her to stay within budget. To her credit she did not once refer a decision to us.
  She has usually been shown this type of respect and has always shown respect back, even when the assistant has been rude to her. One story I love to tell is the time I took her into a shop on the way home from school. Because she was talking to me she forgot her manners. In the end I asked her if she was going to remember them and thank the man or would I have to take her purchase off her and give them back to him. The shop owner had a go at me!
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  Helen Nock April 1, 2009 at 11:52pm

  Hi George,
  I think it's a great post too. I think we are too quick to demonize our young people and children when the blame lies with society and goverment as good parenting and role modelling isn't just restricted to the family home. Yes some can be very scary and violent. And they have learned for a variety of reasons and changes that they can get away with telling adults and authority where to get off. I know terms like individualism, social engineering and relative deprevation are probably cliches by now but by golly if you tell someone what should be and what they should want for long enough....... I mean those terms in relation to market forces. As Pip has noted, in more traditional cultures the sense of community is much stronger and all generations are improtant to make up the whole. Our seperation from each other fills the coffers. Erich Froms 'To Have or to Be', John Berger's 'Ways of Seeing' and 'Care of the Soul' by Thomas Moore are brillant books in this context too. This post has really struck a cord with me and I must get off my soap box. I worked with young offenders and disaffected children for over six years. It was among the most rewarding and personally developing experiences of my life. Alongside seeing potential and providing positive opportunities, if you show a child you believe in them they will come to believe in themselves. If you tell a child it's bad often enough, then that's what it becomes good at...hence the trophys. That's it brain has totally shut down.
  Thanks for posting, it's made me remember.
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  dgeorgea April 2, 2009 at 12:13am

  Hi Phil,
  
  You must have been very proud of Henry. I always get a rush when young people rise to the opportunites they are presented with.
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  dgeorgea April 2, 2009 at 1:40am

  Hi Helen,
  
  I agree with what you say, and look forward to hearing responses from you on some of the future posts. I do think it is a shame that most of the emphasis is on punitive solutions, and programs that move from punitive to possitive opportunities and activities are often criticised without even trying to understand what they are doing.
  
  I believe there are a few for whome punitive elements are required, as is removal from society. My own belief is that no child should be given up on so that they are imprisoned with no chance of returning to normal society. People tend to change a great deal through life so education and skills must be an essential part as discipline.
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  dgeorgea April 2, 2009 at 2:58am

  Hi Pro Gard,
  
  It surprises a lot of people that while I am liberal I am by no means wishy washy about it. My main problem with what you are saying is I don't believe children should be treated the same as adults. Yes there must be consequences, one of the main issues is that children are allowed to get away with so much that when consequences are applied it is often too late.
  
  Either I fail to explain it well, or people don't want to listen, but there is a huge difference between knowing right and wrong and understanding consequences. Most people point to the fact that children should know by a fairly early age that something is wrong and therefore they should face the consequences - particularly when it comes to something that is emotive like murder.
  
  As knife crime is such big news I will use that as an example of what I mean.
  
  A child knows it is wrong to play with knives, and on an intellectual level knows that stabbing someone can result in death. Statistically it you are more likely to survive a knife attack.
  
  July 2008 reportings showed 277 deaths by stabbing. Taking the highest estimate there were around 130,000 incidents. Death by youth on youth attacks was probably around 10%. of the deaths. Young people rarely consider the worst case scenario on things like this - it wouldn't happen to me syndrome. As an adult it would be reasonable to expect I would have the intellect to understand if I choose to stab someone then I could kill them. It is also reasonable to assume that if I chose to use a knife I would have the maturity to be able to stop and control myself, and if I go too far a sense of responsibility to render help to the victim until other help arrive. If I choose to leave and let the person die I would expect to face the consequences as an adult. Most adults who resort to knife crime do not show this level of maturity or self responsibility I would not expect the same level of maturity from a child, or expect a child/young person to act as an adult should.
  
  Our laws are currently enshrined on this principle, that young people cannot be expected to make the same choices as adults and in general we protect our children from being treated as if they were. For instance if I chose to start a sexual relationship with a 13 year old girl no one in their right mind would try to justify this as okay on grounds that the girl knows what is right and wrong and can therefore be expected to make a mature decision to enter into a relationship with a man over three times her age. Though we decide that if a younger child kills someone they should face the full weight of the law as an adult.
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  dgeorgea April 2, 2009 at 12:18pm

  Hi Pro Gard,
  
  Sorry didn't tackle the first part of your post.
  
  The problem with knee jerk laws/rules etc is they are rarely thought through properly. The autism examples I would agree are extreme and were made early on. But it is one of the reasons why ASBOs which were fairly easy to get in the beginning have become much harder because judges require landlords and police to demonstrate that other strategies have failed.
  
  As for the other example being unlikely I would disagree. Adjoining our estate is a remotely controlled block of flats owned by a housing association. There are 12 homes and just as many teenagers with a small concrete yard. Add a few friends, younger siblings and you quickly have a sizeable group. With a couple of exceptions they are well behaved young people, the exceptions are more mouthy than anything else.
  
  During the summer holidays, in particular, they will overflow onto our estate, and use the estate as an extension of their own homes. Normally to do things most kids do, play hide and seek, sit around and chat, play ball games. However we also have residents who feel this makes it okay to be verbally abusive and to swear at them.
  
  Young people today won't accept being talked to that way and will respond. Suddenly they are in the wrong and guilty of anti social behaviour. At least one of the residents I have previously had a run in with when Stacey was 6 and playing on the grass and she felt justified to swear and threaten her and generally intimidate her into leaving the estate. So when some of the committee members started complaining on her behalf I had a lot to say on the matter.
  
  I have also spoken up for this group at the safer neighbourhood ward panel, where they were being described as foul mouth, drug smoking thugs. So technically the example I gave could fall foul of the antisocial behaviour laws, and depending on the tollerance of neighbours depends on the likely hood if they would or not. And that is one of my issues with ASBOs it is not necessarily dependant on the behaviour of others, but the tollerance or lack of it of others.
  
  We have learned to let Stacey come home and if she has had a bad day at school she will go to her room and play her music loudly until she has recomposed herself and is ready to join the family unit. At an open event I did get her to sit down with one of our ASB officers to discuss this and to help us come to an agreement about letting her do this for a short time if needed as long as it does not carry on. Stacey responded well to the officer, if we know a neighbour is not well, or likely to be asleep she will use headphones, though she prefers not to.
  
  Even when I've caught young people putting grafitti on walls I have successfully talked them into removing it, and then treated them. In return I gained their trust and they took better care of their environment.
  
  Young people will often respond to the stimuli they receive, if negative the will respond in a negative manner.
  
  I think one of the other problems is when the ASBO route is taken for criminal behaviour.